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	<title>Comments on: Swine flu genome sequences</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/04/28/swine-flu-genome-sequences/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/04/28/swine-flu-genome-sequences/</link>
	<description>Meddling with things mankind is not meant to understand.  Also, pictures of my kids</description>
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		<title>By: citizen451</title>
		<link>http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/04/28/swine-flu-genome-sequences/comment-page-1/#comment-23207</link>
		<dc:creator>citizen451</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 May 2009 00:34:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/?p=985#comment-23207</guid>
		<description>Yeah!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah!</p>
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		<title>By: iayork</title>
		<link>http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/04/28/swine-flu-genome-sequences/comment-page-1/#comment-22823</link>
		<dc:creator>iayork</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 13:47:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/?p=985#comment-22823</guid>
		<description>You can keep repeating that all day, but it still won&#039;t make it any truer.  Your link is impossible to interpret -- what is it, some home-rolled program? It doesn&#039;t seem to have any meaningful interpretation. As far as I can tell you&#039;re ignoring the obvious fact that this H1N1 is a recombinant and trying to shoehorn everything into some preconceived bias, throwing away a huge amount of data the disagree with you and only accepting the rare pieces that support your theory -- but I can&#039;t even tell if that&#039;s the case because you haven&#039;t actually made any argument, you&#039;ve just repeatedly made a claim as if that supports itself.

If anyone is interested in actually seeing data, I have put a (large!) table up &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.iayork.com/Images/2009/5-4-09/H1N1.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;  showing flu strains that are most similar to each of the segments of the present H1N1 strain.  Also see my earlier posts &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/05/03/1051/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Has the new H1N1 been hiding for 11 years? (No.)&quot;&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/05/02/how-fast-can-influenza-change/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;How fast can influenza change?&quot;&lt;/a&gt; for more commentary.

Please note - I am perfectly open to the concept that this virus is most closely related to a 1998 strain and that it&#039;s been hiding -- but I need to see actual evidence that fits with biology and observation, not mere repeated assertions and incoherent numerology that&#039;s apparently pulled out of thin air.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can keep repeating that all day, but it still won&#8217;t make it any truer.  Your link is impossible to interpret &#8212; what is it, some home-rolled program? It doesn&#8217;t seem to have any meaningful interpretation. As far as I can tell you&#8217;re ignoring the obvious fact that this H1N1 is a recombinant and trying to shoehorn everything into some preconceived bias, throwing away a huge amount of data the disagree with you and only accepting the rare pieces that support your theory &#8212; but I can&#8217;t even tell if that&#8217;s the case because you haven&#8217;t actually made any argument, you&#8217;ve just repeatedly made a claim as if that supports itself.</p>
<p>If anyone is interested in actually seeing data, I have put a (large!) table up <a href="http://www.iayork.com/Images/2009/5-4-09/H1N1.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>  showing flu strains that are most similar to each of the segments of the present H1N1 strain.  Also see my earlier posts <a href="http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/05/03/1051/" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Has the new H1N1 been hiding for 11 years? (No.)&#8221;</a> and <a href="http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/05/02/how-fast-can-influenza-change/" rel="nofollow">&#8220;How fast can influenza change?&#8221;</a> for more commentary.</p>
<p>Please note &#8211; I am perfectly open to the concept that this virus is most closely related to a 1998 strain and that it&#8217;s been hiding &#8212; but I need to see actual evidence that fits with biology and observation, not mere repeated assertions and incoherent numerology that&#8217;s apparently pulled out of thin air.</p>
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		<title>By: gsgs</title>
		<link>http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/04/28/swine-flu-genome-sequences/comment-page-1/#comment-22820</link>
		<dc:creator>gsgs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 12:41:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/?p=985#comment-22820</guid>
		<description>see here for a list of differencs:
http://www.zonegrippeaviaire.com/showpost.php?p=35341

while swineflu sequences from the last years from Minnesota,Ohio,Illinois,Iowa are closer to each
other, the new strain is closest to
A/Wisconsin/10/1998</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>see here for a list of differencs:<br />
<a href="http://www.zonegrippeaviaire.com/showpost.php?p=35341" rel="nofollow">http://www.zonegrippeaviaire.com/showpost.php?p=35341</a></p>
<p>while swineflu sequences from the last years from Minnesota,Ohio,Illinois,Iowa are closer to each<br />
other, the new strain is closest to<br />
A/Wisconsin/10/1998</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/04/28/swine-flu-genome-sequences/comment-page-1/#comment-22775</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2009 23:06:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/?p=985#comment-22775</guid>
		<description>[...] ??Evolution of Swine H3N2 Influenza Viruses in the United States?? ??Swine flu genome sequences [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ??Evolution of Swine H3N2 Influenza Viruses in the United States?? ??Swine flu genome sequences [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jay</title>
		<link>http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/04/28/swine-flu-genome-sequences/comment-page-1/#comment-22753</link>
		<dc:creator>jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2009 14:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/?p=985#comment-22753</guid>
		<description>Hey,
Just wanted to say thanks for doin these alignments,this blog. There is a huge disconnect between major media fluff coverage and the bench-level emerging research. i am no expert in flu either. You have provided what i wanted/needed to know. Saved me the trouble of doing these line-ups myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey,<br />
Just wanted to say thanks for doin these alignments,this blog. There is a huge disconnect between major media fluff coverage and the bench-level emerging research. i am no expert in flu either. You have provided what i wanted/needed to know. Saved me the trouble of doing these line-ups myself.</p>
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		<title>By: iayork</title>
		<link>http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/04/28/swine-flu-genome-sequences/comment-page-1/#comment-22752</link>
		<dc:creator>iayork</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2009 14:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/?p=985#comment-22752</guid>
		<description>Where are you getting this? As far as I can see (see my latest post) it&#039;s simply not true.  What&#039;s more, it&#039;s trying to draw conclusions based on a tiny handful of changes, whereas we know the virus can make that many changes in a week or two and still be the same virus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where are you getting this? As far as I can see (see my latest post) it&#8217;s simply not true.  What&#8217;s more, it&#8217;s trying to draw conclusions based on a tiny handful of changes, whereas we know the virus can make that many changes in a week or two and still be the same virus.</p>
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		<title>By: gsgs</title>
		<link>http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/04/28/swine-flu-genome-sequences/comment-page-1/#comment-22723</link>
		<dc:creator>gsgs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2009 04:51:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/?p=985#comment-22723</guid>
		<description>we had the reassortment event from 1998 (or some years earlier ?) when this type of
virus emerged. The ancestor of modern
American Swine-flu.
Several other progenies from USA of this reassortment are at genbank.
But the new virus (in 123458) is more similar to the 1998 virus than to any of these, suggesting that it evolved separately
(in Mexico ?) since ~1998.
511445 is more similar to several other viruses than to 1998.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>we had the reassortment event from 1998 (or some years earlier ?) when this type of<br />
virus emerged. The ancestor of modern<br />
American Swine-flu.<br />
Several other progenies from USA of this reassortment are at genbank.<br />
But the new virus (in 123458) is more similar to the 1998 virus than to any of these, suggesting that it evolved separately<br />
(in Mexico ?) since ~1998.<br />
511445 is more similar to several other viruses than to 1998.</p>
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		<title>By: iayork</title>
		<link>http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/04/28/swine-flu-genome-sequences/comment-page-1/#comment-22674</link>
		<dc:creator>iayork</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 16:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/?p=985#comment-22674</guid>
		<description>Where are you getting 11 years from?    

The Mexican H1N1 shows about 96% identity to its nearest neighbours.  If you look at recent US swine flu strains you&#039;ll find they&#039;re often about 97% identical to their nearest neighbours, e.g. A/swine/OH/511445/2007(H1N1), especially if you don&#039;t look at multiple isolates from the same outbreak. What&#039;s more, the guys with the most matches tend to be the older strains for obvious reasons -- there you look at their progeny as well as their parents.  In other words, the sort of variation we&#039;re seeing for the MExican strain is pretty much exactly what we&#039;d expect to see in a random US outbreak -- such as happen every year or two.  Or are you arguing that A/swine/OH/511445/2007(H1N1) was hiding out in Mexico?  Or is it simply that this sort of variance is fairly normal for swine influenzas?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where are you getting 11 years from?    </p>
<p>The Mexican H1N1 shows about 96% identity to its nearest neighbours.  If you look at recent US swine flu strains you&#8217;ll find they&#8217;re often about 97% identical to their nearest neighbours, e.g. A/swine/OH/511445/2007(H1N1), especially if you don&#8217;t look at multiple isolates from the same outbreak. What&#8217;s more, the guys with the most matches tend to be the older strains for obvious reasons &#8212; there you look at their progeny as well as their parents.  In other words, the sort of variation we&#8217;re seeing for the MExican strain is pretty much exactly what we&#8217;d expect to see in a random US outbreak &#8212; such as happen every year or two.  Or are you arguing that A/swine/OH/511445/2007(H1N1) was hiding out in Mexico?  Or is it simply that this sort of variance is fairly normal for swine influenzas?</p>
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		<title>By: gsgs</title>
		<link>http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/04/28/swine-flu-genome-sequences/comment-page-1/#comment-22671</link>
		<dc:creator>gsgs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 16:15:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/?p=985#comment-22671</guid>
		<description>in USA these 6 segments would have been more likely detected within those 11 years.
Not any Mexican swine sequences at genbank.

You could just demand to hold life imported swine separately from domestic ones
until they are tested and authorities give an OK.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>in USA these 6 segments would have been more likely detected within those 11 years.<br />
Not any Mexican swine sequences at genbank.</p>
<p>You could just demand to hold life imported swine separately from domestic ones<br />
until they are tested and authorities give an OK.</p>
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		<title>By: iayork</title>
		<link>http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/04/28/swine-flu-genome-sequences/comment-page-1/#comment-22651</link>
		<dc:creator>iayork</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 12:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/?p=985#comment-22651</guid>
		<description>No evidence the 6 segments were evolving in Mexico.  They look more like standard North American swine flu -- Indiana, Ohio, etc viruses are among the best matches for the present sequences.

As for laws, what on Earth do you think you could do?  Might as well pass a law making it illegal for wood to float. This isn&#039;t manmade recombination, it&#039;s natural.

On the other hand, this is clearly a wakeup call for more surveillance -- swine influenza surveillance has been very scattered and desultory.  But you have to remember -- influenza, and swine influenza, are universal.  Viruses that look like the parent strains of this virus would be everywhere, and would look perfectly ordinary on surveillance.  For that matter, this H1N1 would itself look perfectly ordinary on surveillance.  You&#039;d have to ban all pig import and export (and much more than that) and it still likely wouldn&#039;t work because some other species&#039; flu would hop over into pigs and cause an epidemic (remember that the H1N1 swine flus are human-derived!).  

The biggest and scariest change in swine influenza that would have been flagged in surveillance was the rise of the triple recombinant in the 1990s -- and that turned out to be essentially harmless to humans (unless there turns out to be a 15-year lag in the harm).

We don&#039;t know enough about influenza in general, or swine influenza in particular.  Finger-pointing, jumping to conclusions, and prejudice isn&#039;t going to give us any answers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No evidence the 6 segments were evolving in Mexico.  They look more like standard North American swine flu &#8212; Indiana, Ohio, etc viruses are among the best matches for the present sequences.</p>
<p>As for laws, what on Earth do you think you could do?  Might as well pass a law making it illegal for wood to float. This isn&#8217;t manmade recombination, it&#8217;s natural.</p>
<p>On the other hand, this is clearly a wakeup call for more surveillance &#8212; swine influenza surveillance has been very scattered and desultory.  But you have to remember &#8212; influenza, and swine influenza, are universal.  Viruses that look like the parent strains of this virus would be everywhere, and would look perfectly ordinary on surveillance.  For that matter, this H1N1 would itself look perfectly ordinary on surveillance.  You&#8217;d have to ban all pig import and export (and much more than that) and it still likely wouldn&#8217;t work because some other species&#8217; flu would hop over into pigs and cause an epidemic (remember that the H1N1 swine flus are human-derived!).  </p>
<p>The biggest and scariest change in swine influenza that would have been flagged in surveillance was the rise of the triple recombinant in the 1990s &#8212; and that turned out to be essentially harmless to humans (unless there turns out to be a 15-year lag in the harm).</p>
<p>We don&#8217;t know enough about influenza in general, or swine influenza in particular.  Finger-pointing, jumping to conclusions, and prejudice isn&#8217;t going to give us any answers.</p>
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